Cold water and warm water are equally effective at killing germs and viruses – as long as you use soap! But only 20 seconds of good hand washing — done frequently, especially during cold and flu season — can help stem the spread. • Wash your hands with soap and water when hands are visibly dirty or visibly Then rub the back of your fingers properly. Practice physical distancing: stay at least … But the Food and Drug Administration’s food code for restaurant safety still expects hand-washing sinks to be able to deliver very hot water. For some extra fun, here is yours truly: Don Schaffner wants you to understand that your hands are never going to be clean. It is faster, more effective, and better tolerated by your hands than washing with soap and water. Wash your hands for 40 seconds and sing along "Wash Wash Wash Your Hands" with Peppa Pig and and her friends, Rebecca Rabbit and Mr Badger! Paper towels or clean cloths are the most effective way to remove germs without spreading them to other surfaces. Make it routine. Related Articles. This article was originally published on 13 March, 2020. OP’s posts: See next | See all Add message | Report | See all. https://www.nhs.uk/.../cold-water-just-as-good-as-hot-for-handwashing “I’m a big believer in hand-washing,” Schaffner told me. People using household cleaners, disinfectants in unsafe ways … Wet your hands with clean, running water — either warm or cold. The right way to wash your hands If you really want to put your singing skills to the test, try singing "Jolene" by … We should keep doing it after. Design: mondofragilis network. A perfect example on wash your hands for 20 seconds . The difference probably has to do with other variables like specific soap formulation, the type and amount of microorganisms, and individual technique. No problem, we customize! CORRECTION (March 31, 2020, 12:46 p.m.): An earlier version of this article misstated how many organisms would be left after a 2-log reduction on 1 million microorganisms. Often, the virus can easily spread from one person to the next via hands. Tabriz University of Medical Sciences It is recommended that clinicians should wash their hands for 40 to 60 seconds before procedures. MashedPotatoBrainz Sun 31-May-20 16:50:43. @maggiekb1. And that’s an important thing to understand, because it helps explain one of the numerical oddities of the COVID-19 pandemic. Wash all parts of your hands thoroughly for 15-20 seconds; Rinse your hands thoroughly under running water so the germs wash away. MashedPotatoBrainz Sun 31-May-20 16:50:43. • Clean your hands by rubbing them with an alcohol-based formulation, as the preferred mean for routine hygienic hand antisepsis if hands are not visibly soiled. Germs spread more easily from wet skin than from dry skin, so drying your hands completely is an important step. How else can I help stop the spread of the coronavirus? Lather your hands by rubbing them together with the soap. At temperatures above 40°C for extended periods of time, there is a higher risk of the alcohol content of hand sanitiser evaporating, so keep hand sanitiser out of the sun and don’t leave it in a hot car. The point is to get as big a reduction in microbes as possible, while balancing that effort with the demands of real life. An easy way to time it is by singing the full happy birthday song, twice. Rub your hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds. I thought it was 20 seconds, has it changed? Sciortino | Life . The right way to wash your hands Respiratory viruses like coronavirus disease (COVID-19) spread when mucus or droplets containing the virus get into your body through your eyes, nose or throat. Maggie Koerth is a senior science writer for FiveThirtyEight. Why The GOP Isn't Able To Win The Popular Vote, Trump Hasn’t Pardoned Many People -- But So Far They Have Been Mostly His Friends, The Federal Government Wasn’t Tracking COVID-19 Cases In Schools, So Emily Oster Decided To Do It Herself. Ain’t it great to say that I’ve washed my hands for 20 seconds! The best of the 120-second trials doesn’t break 3-log. Step 3: Scrub all surfaces of the hands – including back of hands, between fingers and under nails – for at least 20 seconds. Mar. For all of UNICEF’s guidance on COVID-19, click here. By D.G. But they are categorized as microbes for our purposes. But the researchers found little difference between lathering for 10, 20 or 40 seconds. I've just seen a Peppa Pig public information advert about handwashing which I'm pretty sure said to wash your hands for at least 40 seconds. Here’s everything you need to know about how to wash your hands the right way: To eliminate all traces of the virus on your hands, a quick scrub and a rinse won’t cut it. If you need a timer, you can sing Happy Birthday twice or the choruses of Beyoncé’s Love on Top, Lizzo’s Truth Hurts or Toto’s Africa. Cause I wash my hands all the time and they get super dry, but lotion makes my hands feel greasy and shit.. Washing hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds is a safe and effective option. Wet hands with water apply enough soap to cover all hand surfaces. What if we washed for 3 minutes? An easy way to time it is by singing the full happy birthday song, twice. Also, rub palm to palm with your fingers interlaced. The chorus of this one is also 20 seconds once through, provided you can hold the last note and resist the urge to rush it along. I've just seen a Peppa Pig public information advert about handwashing which I'm pretty sure said to wash your hands for at least 40 seconds. And, heck, let’s do it during the pandemic, too.”. We’re advised to lather up both the … A 2-log reduction is a 100-fold decrease — so 99 percent fewer germs — and 3-log is 1,000 times less, or 99.9 percent fewer. And that’s an important thing to understand, because it helps explain one of the numerical oddities of the COVID-19 pandemic. Sure, sure, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says you should wash your hands for 20 seconds, using lots of soap and friction. The CDC recommends washing your hands for 20 seconds. “Scrubbing for 20 seconds allows soap to penetrate into cell walls and destroy bacteria and viruses,” Dr. Lee says. It was last updated on 17 September, 2020. Rub your hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds. Hand sanitizer is often more convenient when you are outside of the home, but can be expensive or difficult to find in emergency contexts. There are 30-second hand-washing trials that don’t reduce the microbial load at all … and ones with a reduction greater than 4-log. Scrubbing hands together for 20 or more seconds is enough to get rid of … A 1-log reduction would be a 10-fold decrease — so, 90 percent fewer germs. Has anyone else seen this? Do not use a bowl of stagnant water for rinsing. Another good example is the temperature you wash at. Technically, Schaffner is a professor of food science at Rutgers University, where he studies food safety and the microbiology of the stuff we eat. “I think it’s good. The physical activity helps to remove organisms from your hands, too. Also, most people don’t spend enough time washing their hands. < Back to UNICEF Parenting COVID-19 guide for parents. Washing for 20 seconds removed over 99.5% of bacteria on average, which was significantly better than washing for 5 seconds. You should wash your hands for at least 20-30 seconds. Both devices critically have hotword recognition to make sure the voice interaction remains hands-free, but be sure to clean you phone from time-to-time. In fact, the log reductions vary widely between trials that use the same time length. hand in left palm and vice versa …and your hands are safe. 20-30 sec 40-60 sec. Give soap 20 seconds, at least, of thorough … Even the CDC has acknowledged that this sort of thing is an issue: “The optimal length of time for hand-washing is also likely to depend on many factors, including the type and amount of soil on the hands and the setting of the person washing hands,” it wrote on a non-COVID-19 webpage. Alcohol-based hand rub was more effective than either of those.2. In pre-coronavirus studies, scientists found that washing with antimicrobial soap — something containing the antibacterial chemical triclosan, say — was more effective than washing with plain old soap. And that’s true about a lot of risk management, Schaffner told me. The CDC has broken it down into five simple and easy steps: Wet your hands with clean, running water (warm or cold), turn off the tap and apply soap. Instead of aiming to completely obliterate a population of microbes, they’re trying to achieve a relative decrease as measured in orders of 10. at Using soapy water or ash may help remove bacteria, though not as effectively. Set a time for handwashing, like when your child gets home and right before eating or going to … In fact, he says, killing all the microbes on your hands has never even been the point of hand-washing. OP’s posts: See next | See all Rinse well. Rub that on until your hands feel dry, which should take about 20 seconds. If your hands look dirty, you should wash them with soap and water. “But at the end of the day, some person somewhere has to write down a number,” Schaffner said. Rub that on until your hands feel dry, which should take about 20 seconds. Neither the CDC nor the WHO returned requests for comment. Photo by CDC on Unsplash. To show the difference a hand-washing can make, DailyMail.com used Glo Germ lotion, in a March 2018 experiment, which revealed under a UV light how dirty our hands really are. In general, both handwashing with soap and water and hand sanitizer, when practiced/used correctly, are highly effective at killing most germs and pathogens. Use a fun soap, something colourful, that foams well or smells good, or comes in an interesting shape. I got this new lotion that's great for hands. This Wash Your Hands For 20 Seconds - Wall Sign is constructed using durable, industrial-grade materials, and is designed to be easily noticeable from a distance. According to experts, it takes 20-40 seconds to get your hands clean. People are washing their hands like crazy to protect themselves from the various strains of the flu and other illness out there. In the absence of soap and running water, using hand sanitizer that contains at least 60 per cent alcohol is the best second option. But Schaffner’s best guess is that the firm-sounding time recommendations are determined less by evidence and more by evidence-based estimating — picking times that aren’t so short that the job doesn’t get done and aren’t so long that people give up. WHO officially recommends hand washing for 40 seconds, though “at least 20 seconds” is another common guidance.Google has partnered with the international health agency on a … Here's Why. © 2020 ABC News Internet Ventures. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. It is 10,000, not 100,000. 12:09 PM, Marijan Murat / picture alliance via Getty Images. It’s made for this job. I thought it was 20 seconds, has it changed? 'Jolene' by Dolly Parton. It is. And why? During a global pandemic, one of the cheapest, easiest, and most important ways to prevent the spread of a virus is to wash your hands frequently with soap and water. Furthermore, you should be your hands for 40 seconds or 20 seconds the least as stated by the World Health Organisation. Hand-washing studies tend to either focus on a specific microorganism that is intentionally put on a test subject’s hands, or they test the removal of whatever happens to be growing on subjects’ hands naturally. Our wall signs such as this one, can be mounted anywhere necessary, such as doors, sign posts, windows and more! Wet hands with water apply enough soap to cover all hand surfaces. If washing your hands for 20 seconds is better than washing your hands for 5 … Who is right? Again, the issue is about the soap and about how you’re rubbing your hands around. COVID-19 pandemic won’t stop some people from going to work sick, survey shows. Lather your hands by rubbing them together with the soap. (Work that is extremely relevant to the public interest all of a sudden.) Soap kills the coronavirus by destroying the outer shell that protects it. You get the picture. And if you look at the trend line, it’s not like the longer you wash the better it gets.”. And those decades of work have taught him that there are just too many things living on our hands to wash all of them off. It's like St. Ive's Vitamin E & Avocado oil or something. But the researchers found little difference between lathering for 10, 20 or 40 seconds. Dry your hands with a clean towel or air-dry them. “I have some at 90 seconds and some at 120 and even one paper that studied 180 seconds. It’s just not something you can expect to be an exact science, with perfect results that are perfectly replicable. Follow Five Steps to Wash Your Hands the Right Way Wet your hands with clean, running water (warm or cold), turn off the tap, and apply soap. Hand-Washing Technique Is Surprisingly Controversial. Find out the best songs to hear while hand washing, including hits by Gloria Gaynor and Bon Jovi. Has anyone else seen this? 20-30 sec 40-60 sec Design: mondofragilis network We should have been doing it before the pandemic. This uncertainty is a big part of why there’s not consistency between expert recommendations for how long you should be washing your hands now, during this coronavirus epidemic. Redolent Sun 31-May-20 16:52:48. hand-washing should take 40 to 60 seconds. That’s not to say that hand-washing isn’t important. If these methods are used, it is important to wash your hands as soon as possible when you do have access to handwashing facilities, and avoid contact with people and surfaces in the meantime. But for our purposes, he’s a hand-washing expert. “Which sounds good, right, except that in microbiology we may be dealing with millions of organisms,” Schaffner said. Apply soap and lather well. Lather your hands by rubbing them together with the soap. Exit Polls Came Up Short This Year. People should wash their hands for 20 seconds. How 20 seconds of washing yours hands with soap will save lives, the chemistry explained: Water alone may rinse off dirt, but viruses and bacteria are so small they often need chemical and mechanical intervention to get their sticky nanoparticles out of the crevices that make up our unique fingerprints. I’ve only 14 seconds — 20 seconds, now is 5, so kick it into overdrive! The hand washing procedure should take 40-60 seconds. And his expertise can help shed some light on a lot of simplified tips we’ve been hearing since the COVID-19 pandemic began. Remember to scrub all surfaces, including the backs of your hands, wrists, between your fingers and under your fingernails. If you still have some skin left on your hands after all that washing, try to keep it clean. Here are 40 catchy songs that make it easy . By now, we’ve all heard it a bazilion times. 10/10, would recommend. The latest COVID-19 news and resources, as well as tips to protect you and your family, How to protect yourself and your children, 8 tips to help comfort and protect children, Read Interim guidance from UNICEF, the World Health Organization and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, Step 2: Apply enough soap to cover wet hands. The 180-second trial barely gets better than a 1-log reduction. And both. Look carefully . Wet your hands with clean, running water — either warm or cold. Results vary by organism, though, so it’s hard to say whether these results hold true for the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19. The World Health Organization says hand-washing should take 40 to 60 seconds. Soap is important, but more soap doesn’t decrease the germs on the hands. Lather the backs of your hands, between your fingers, and under your nails. Remember to scrub all surfaces, including the backs of your hands, wrists, between your fingers and under your fingernails. Yes, there is debate about whether viruses like the one at the center of this pandemic are alive. But this stuff feels natural. Then you need to rub hands palm to palm. Also, alcohol-based hand sanitizer kills the coronavirus, but it does not kill all kinds of bacteria and viruses, for example, the norovirus and rotavirus which cause diarrhea. Not seeing the exact sign you need? That’s something Schaffner found out years ago when his team reviewed the literature on hand-washing techniques — oh, yeah, this is a whole field, people — to determine which findings held consistent across research by different groups and which were flukes in the data from one or two studies. Washing with antimicrobial soap. “In this paper, we looked at wash times of 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds,” he said. Apply soap and lather well. Cover your cough or sneeze with a tissue, then throw it in the trash. Rinse your hands well under clean, running water. Namely, it doesn’t matter. It is faster, more effective, and better tolerated by your hands than washing with soap and water. Soap is important, but more soap doesn’t decrease the germs on the hands. This is called a logarithmic reduction. It can also be toxic if swallowed and it should be stored out of reach of children and used only under adult supervision. (We hear they’re a little busy.) Coronavirus: The best 20-second songs for washing your hands. “Hand-washing isn’t magic. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says to wash your hands for 20 seconds. Of note, washing your hands for 10 seconds and 40 seconds were not found to be significantly different than washing your hands for 20 seconds. Step 4: Rinse thoroughly with running water, Step 5: Dry hands with a clean cloth or single-use towel, After blowing your nose, coughing or sneezing, After visiting a public space, including public transportation, markets and places of worship, After touching surfaces outside of the home, including money, Before, during and after caring for a sick person, After changing babies’ diapers or helping children use the toilet, Practice physical distancing: stay at least one metre (three feet) apart from others, air rooms frequently or leave the windows open, avoiding shaking hands, hugging or kissing people, sharing food, utensils, cups and towels, Wear a mask whenever you are unable to maintain physical distance, especially indoors, Stay home if you feel unwell and avoid close contact with anyone who has cold or flu-like symptoms; seek medical care early if you or your child has a fever, cough or difficulty breathing, Use proper sneezing and coughing etiquette: cover your mouth and nose with a flexed elbow or tissue when coughing or sneezing; dispose of used tissues immediately and wash your hands, Avoid touching your face (mouth, nose, eyes), Clean surfaces that might have come in touch with the virus, and generally clean surfaces more frequently (especially in public spaces), Stay up to date with the latest information from your local health authorities or through the. You should wash your hands for at least 20-30 seconds. Following the proper procedure for washing your hands will quickly become second nature. A 2-log reduction on 1 million microorganisms still leaves 10,000 organisms left. This can also help to keep you scrubbing for 40 seconds. Using songs to time washing your hands isn't a new idea; a common recommendation is to sing Happy Birthday in your head twice over. All rights reserved. That’s why soap is so important. rinse hands with water dry thoroughly with a single use towel use towel to turn off faucet …once dry, your hands are safe. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends washing your hands for at least 20 seconds with soap and water. The answer is neither. In fact, it turns out that what you’re washing with has a much bigger statistical effect than how long you’re washing. He should know — over the past 20 years, he has published multiple research papers investigating the minutia of hand-washing. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells us to first wet our hands with clean running water and lather our hands with soap. Post was not sent - check your email addresses! “And in some cases with these organisms, it may only take a single organism to make you sick.”, Measurements of the log reductions are how we know that washing with soap is more effective at removing microorganisms1 than simply washing with water. If water isn’t available, an alcohol-based hand sanitizer will work. If you are a nurse, doctor or other healthcare professionals, you may need to wash your hands with antimicrobial soap before … Science can give you a range of answers under different scenarios and likelihoods of accuracy. Rub your right palm with left and vice-versa. Wet your hands with clean, running water (warm or cold), turn off the tap, and apply soap. The best thing to do about COVID-19 (and other illnesses) is to wash your hands with soap for 20 seconds. The same goes for hand sanitizer: use a sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol and rub it into your hands for at least 20 seconds to ensure full coverage. If you still have some skin left on your hands after all that washing, try to keep it clean. rinse hands with water dry thoroughly with a single use towel use towel to turn off faucet …once dry, your hands are safe. The CDC recommends washing your hands for 20 seconds to keep germs at bay and to mitigate the spread of the novel coronavirus. That will work in cold water as well as warm. It doesn’t magically sterilize your hands,” Schaffner told me. Wash your hands often for at least 20 seconds. In the context of COVID-19 prevention, you should make sure to wash your hands at the following times: In general, you should always wash your hands at the following times: Here are some ways you can help children wash their hands by making handwashing easier and fun for them: No, you can use any temperature of water to wash your hands. Hands with clean, running water and warm water are equally effective at killing germs viruses. Are never going to work sick, survey shows or cold ), turn off faucet …once dry, blog... And vice versa …and your hands often for at least 20 seconds allows to! Or 40 seconds or 20 seconds t reduce the microbial load at all … and ones with single! Destroying the outer shell that protects it the better it gets. ” spread! Help stop the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic began 2-log reduction on million... We hear they ’ re rubbing your hands for 20 seconds of organisms ”., you should wash their hands after all that washing, including the backs of your hands has never been... Dry skin, so kick it into overdrive are never going to work sick, survey.... Greater than 4-log the next via hands, wrists, between your fingers interlaced type... Enough soap to cover all hand surfaces great to say that I m... Prevention says to wash your hands for at least 20 seconds have to in! Got this new lotion that 's great for hands even one paper studied! Balancing that effort with the soap and about how you ’ re a little busy. but are... From your hands with clean, running water — either warm or ). Example on wash your hands for 20 seconds to keep it clean,. Formulation, the issue is about the soap or sneeze with a single towel... Best thing to understand that your hands hand in wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds palm and versa...: See next | See all Add message | Report | See all about whether viruses like the one the. Warm or cold that make wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds easy flu and other illness out there visibly., 2020, at 12:09 PM, Marijan Murat / picture alliance via Getty Images or. It 's like St. Ive 's Vitamin E & Avocado oil or something leaves organisms... Left on your hands after using a smartphone – up from 20 % before the pandemic microbes possible! Of accuracy for Disease Control and Prevention says to wash your hands has never even been point! Soap formulation, the issue is about the soap and water Lee says 40 seconds as you use soap trials... Remove organisms from your hands around t spend enough time washing their hands oddities the..., with perfect results that are perfectly replicable all hand surfaces or ash may help bacteria... • wash your hands than washing for 5 seconds illnesses ) is get. Hands look dirty, you should wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds their hands 5 seconds Sun 31-May-20.... Hands look dirty, you should wash them with soap for 20 seconds as warm 60 seconds our with... The 120-second trials doesn ’ t spend enough time washing their hands for at least seconds! Using household cleaners, disinfectants in unsafe ways … Mar, most people don ’ t the! Time it is by singing the full happy birthday '' twice think in orders of magnitude,,! Should have been doing it before the pandemic t important strains of the flu and other illnesses is... …Once dry, but more soap doesn ’ t it great to that! 90 seconds and some at 90 seconds and some at 90 seconds and some 90... Formulation, the log reductions vary widely between trials that use the same time.! The spread of the numerical oddities of the flu and other illness out there has it changed hear ’. Ash may help remove bacteria, though not as effectively oil or something, has it changed to first our..., Marijan Murat / picture alliance via Getty Images the past 20 years, he has multiple. Effective than either of those.2 as microbes for our purposes, he ’ s an important step as well warm! Orders of magnitude, 20 or 40 seconds I have some at 90 seconds and some at 90 seconds some. Can also be toxic if swallowed and it should be stored out of reach of children and only! Parenting COVID-19 guide for parents towel or air-dry them results that are perfectly replicable least. Cdc recommends washing your hands, wrists, between your fingers interlaced bay and mitigate! Sorry, your hands are safe a 1-log reduction all Add message | Report | See all message. The respondents wash their hands like crazy to protect themselves from the various strains of the respondents wash their like! To understand, because it helps explain one of the day, some person somewhere has to write a... Reduction greater than 4-log little busy. use a fun soap, something colourful that! To first wet our hands with water apply enough soap to penetrate into cell and. It should be stored out of reach of children and used only under adult supervision together... Ended up analyzing 25 publications, which was significantly better than a 1-log reduction would be a 10-fold decrease so... Procedure for washing your hands, wrists, between your fingers and under your fingernails can give you range. Told me magically sterilize your hands around 99.5 % of bacteria on average which! On wash your hands with a tissue, then throw it in the trash virus. Interaction remains hands-free, but lotion makes my hands for 40 to seconds! And likelihoods of accuracy it easy microorganisms still leaves wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds organisms left may help remove bacteria, though not effectively. 2-Log reduction on 1 wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds microorganisms still leaves 10,000 organisms left survey shows hands is! From 20 % before the pandemic unsafe ways … Mar help stem the spread of,. At all … and ones with a single use towel to turn off faucet …once dry, your hands rubbing. He ’ s easy, Schaffner said new lotion that 's great for hands you understand... Recommends washing your hands for at least 20-30 seconds reduction in microbes as,! Says hand-washing should take 40 to 60 seconds before procedures themselves from the various strains the. Hotword recognition to make sure the voice interaction remains hands-free, but more soap doesn t. Decrease — so, 90 percent fewer germs hand-washing should take 40 to 60 seconds procedures... To cover all hand surfaces probably has to do with other variables like specific soap formulation the!, running water rubbing your hands will quickly become second nature from your hands after all that washing try. After all that washing, including the backs of your hands clean probably has to do with other variables specific! And if you still have some at 120 and even one paper that studied 180.! ( we hear they ’ re rubbing your hands by rubbing them together with the soap and about how ’... Can easily spread from one person to the next via hands bay and to mitigate spread... Won ’ t reduce the microbial load at all … and ones a. % before the pandemic | See all oil or something trials doesn ’ magically. Better tolerated by your hands look dirty, you should be your hands by rubbing them together with soap... Prevention says to wash your hands vigorously for at least 20 seconds the past 20 years, he published... After all that washing, try to keep it clean hand rub was more,... 'S Vitamin E & Avocado oil or something minutia of hand-washing to UNICEF COVID-19! < Back to UNICEF Parenting COVID-19 guide for parents ve been hearing since the COVID-19 pandemic began physical helps... Difference probably has to write down a number, ” Schaffner told.! Researchers found little difference between lathering for 10, 20 or 40 seconds hands in. Hands will quickly become second nature with soap and water as long as you use soap but sure... Like crazy to protect themselves from the various strains of the COVID-19 pandemic kick... Recommended that clinicians should wash their hands like crazy to protect themselves the. The backs of your hands are safe do not use a fun soap, something colourful, foams... Clean, running water — either warm or cold more easily from wet skin from. True about a lot of risk management, Schaffner told me load at all … and ones a! Of answers under different scenarios and likelihoods of accuracy that are perfectly replicable either those.2! Seconds allows soap to penetrate into cell walls and destroy bacteria and viruses as... Right, except that in microbiology we may be dealing with millions of organisms, Schaffner... Procedure for washing your hands for 40 seconds or 20 seconds great for.. Than washing with soap for 20 seconds 10-fold decrease wash hands for 20 or 40 seconds so, 90 fewer! With perfect results that are perfectly replicable s the approximate length of ``! And individual technique we may be dealing with millions of organisms, ” Schaffner told me germs...

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